The AI Job Market: Adapt or Fall Behind

Julien Redelsperger: "I'm super happy to welcome Mike Todasco. He is a visiting fellow at the James Silberrad Brown Center for Artificial Intelligence at San Diego State University. Previously, he was the senior director of innovation at PayPal, focused on emerging technologies. And today, we will discuss how AI is changing the rules for recruitment and leading a new job. Thank you for joining me today. How are you, Mike?"

Mike Todasco: "I'm great, Julien. I'm happy to be here and excited about the conversation."

Julien Redelsperger: "Well, thank you so much for joining me. So, you have a vast experience in the tech industry. You worked at PayPal. So, my first question for you would be: How would you characterize the job market today? Do you think it would be more challenging than, you know, it was a few years ago? And is AI to blame? What's your take on that?"

Mike Todasco: "Oh, there's a lot in that question. I feel we could take a full 60 minutes on that. Absolutely. Look, I think I'm going to talk specifically about the Silicon Valley tech markets, and then, you know, it kind of expands beyond there. A couple of years ago, where I live in Silicon Valley, the San Francisco Bay Area, it was pretty rough. A lot of folks were leaving for Miami, Austin, or all these other places. And frankly, then the AI boom started to happen, and the epicenter was in San Francisco.

I'm seeing a lot of activity from people I know, former colleagues who are starting their own AI businesses. I think these businesses are going to be smaller than their predecessors because they're going to be able to use AI and tools to do much of the work. But for big tech, like Intel, which is right down the street from me, things are not going great. Meanwhile, NVIDIA, just a little further down, is doing really well and hiring. So, it's a mixed bag.

For anyone with the right skills, determination, and will, you can still find something. And I could talk a whole lot about how to find a job in this kind of mixed-bag job market. I wouldn't say AI is to blame yet, but further down the road, it might be an issue in the medium term."

Julien Redelsperger: "So, how would you explain that so many companies have let people go over the last 12 months? Is it because of the economy? Is it because of AI, or is it some uncertainty in the job market? What are the key factors?"

Mike Todasco: "I think one side of it was just bloat. I saw this while I was at PayPal during COVID. PayPal's stock went from $40 or maybe $60 to $300 within a very short amount of time. For e-commerce companies, payment companies, and other companies like these, the common wisdom was that this was the new normal—that no one was shopping in stores anymore, and the world had changed. We thought it would be permanent.

But when the world became 'normal' again, that didn’t happen. Sure, there was some step up in activity, but it wasn’t the exponential growth we were expecting. Most companies completely misjudged that. And when you're seeing your competitors hire a bunch of really talented people, the natural reaction is to do the same.

Then, frankly, when Elon Musk stepped into Twitter and fired 80% of the workforce—and the company kept functioning, websites didn’t go down—I think that gave a lot of other leaders some cover to do the same. Maybe they thought there was bloat in their own companies. And I think that led to a lot of layoffs."

Julien Redelsperger: "So, what do you say to people who were let go? They may feel frustrated, angry, and wonder what the next step is going to be. What do you say to all the managers and people who were laid off?"

Mike Todasco: "Yeah, that was kind of capitalist Mike in the last answer. Now, I’m going to shift to compassionate Mike in this one. First of all, it sucks. It’s awful. This is your life. You don’t care if the layoff was to make the company perform better—you shouldn't care. You need to feed your family, pay your mortgage, and take care of your responsibilities. That's what matters.

So first, it’s an awful situation. But second, with where we're going with AI and the next generation of tools, hopefully, you’ve got a little severance package or unemployment benefits. You can use that to retrain and reskill. What I tell people is: get back in the game, but come in with an entirely new skill set. If you can be AI-first in your job, that’s going to give you a huge advantage over others.

For the last two years, I’ve been writing and speaking about how these tools can improve our lives. Sure, there are risks with these tools, but there are also a lot of ways they can make you a better, more attractive employee for another company."

Julien Redelsperger: "So, were you ever let go or did you have to let people go in your previous position?"

Mike Todasco: "Yes, I did. And it sucked. I wasn’t laid off myself, but I vividly remember back in 2015 when we had to do layoffs. I was instructed to write down all the names of people in my organization and rank them, literally one through X. Then someone would come in and just draw a line where the cuts would happen. That was awful. I thought, 'What the hell? This is how we do things?' It was a horrible process.

I let some really talented people go. It’s probably okay for me to say this now since it's been almost 10 years, but I told some people before I was actually supposed to. I wanted to give them time to prepare and help them land on their feet somewhere else. That’s not what you're supposed to do in a big company, but I thought it was the more humane thing to do. But it didn’t make the process any less painful or awkward."

Julien Redelsperger: "Do you think we need more skills today to find a job than we did in 2015? Is it more complicated or do we need to train more now than before?"

Mike Todasco: "I don’t think it's much different in terms of required skills. I think most people are looking for a job the wrong way. Platforms like Indeed or LinkedIn make it easy to submit your resume with just one click, so you feel good about applying to multiple jobs. But on the hiring side, I can tell you that it’s pretty useless if you’re just submitting your resume into a pool. When I was hiring at PayPal, we would get hundreds of candidates, and I wouldn’t even see most of the resumes.

The best advice I can give to job seekers is this: get someone inside the company to be your champion. This is where LinkedIn is actually effective. Find someone who works there, who knows the manager, and ask them to pass your resume along. It’s not easy, and people may ignore you, but it’s so much more effective than just sending your resume into a black hole. At PayPal, if someone I knew passed along a resume, I would almost always at least interview that person. That personal connection, even a loose one, makes a big difference."

Julien Redelsperger: "Because these days we have artificial intelligence, automation, and ATS (applicant tracking systems) that are supposed to make the hiring experience better for both managers and candidates. Do you think the technology has gone too far, and why is it so complicated today to find a job in the AI era?"

Mike Todasco: "Yeah, and that’s what I’m describing here, Julien. I’m literally saying to go old-school—find someone to hand your resume to the hiring manager. That’s the furthest thing from AI. Human nature hasn’t changed in the world of AI. We still trust people we know more than machines, even if the AI provides a perfect candidate. We rely on those relationships.

Even if the AI gives you the perfect resume based on all the data it has, it’s not going to replace a personal recommendation. I haven’t seen any tool today that can give you the perfect candidate without biases. So, the old-school way might not be a bad way to continue doing things, at least for now."

Julien Redelsperger: "What are some common misconceptions job seekers have about AI’s impact on the job market? Do they think that if they build their resume on ChatGPT, it’s going to be perfect, and they’ll easily land a job?"

Mike Todasco: "I think people should definitely be using these tools to help them, 100%. One of the best hacks is to take the job description for a role you're applying to—let’s say at Facebook—and put it into a tool like Claude or ChatGPT, alongside your resume. Ask the AI to rewrite your resume using the language Facebook uses in their job posting.

This simple step helps you speak the company’s language, which is key when applying for jobs. But I’d never recommend sending off a resume without reviewing it yourself. These tools get you 80% there, but you need to add your own flair and personality for the final touch. Customize each resume for every job and use a cover letter if needed."

Julien Redelsperger: "I explained in the introduction that you teach at San Diego State University, so you are in touch with students regularly. What do they think of AI today? Are they anxious or excited about looking for a job in the AI era?"

Mike Todasco: "Two years ago, pre-ChatGPT, I remember talking to students—these were business school students—and there was almost disinterest. They didn’t see how AI applied to them. But every semester, their interest in AI has grown. Last week, I was with a class, and I was blown away by what they were doing with these tools—things I wasn’t even aware of. AI has become so much more integrated into the student experience.

What I tell them is that they are uniquely positioned to use these tools to do more than their predecessors could. There’s a little bit of trepidation because they’re concerned about AI replacing jobs. But I emphasize using and mastering these tools to set themselves apart in the job market. If they can do that, they’ll have a big advantage over older generations who may not be as comfortable with AI."

Julien Redelsperger: "On the other side of the equation, would you say that companies—tech and non-tech—are ready for AI? Do managers and employees really understand how AI is going to change things?"

Mike Todasco: "I’d say most companies aren’t AI-ready. It’s hard to change habits, even if AI tools offer better ways of doing things. A friend of mine, a dentist in Silicon Valley, just stopped using fax machines last year—25-year-old technology. This is 2024! That inertia is real.

Even if we had AGI (artificial general intelligence) tomorrow, which is smarter than all of humanity combined, the world wouldn’t change overnight. It takes time to adapt to new technologies, even when they’re clearly better."

Julien Redelsperger: "But don’t you think things are moving faster today? The digital transformation took 10 to 15 years to spread. Now, with AI, things seem to be accelerating. Isn’t it harder to adapt?"

Mike Todasco: "Absolutely. I spend my days working on this, and I can’t keep up. There’s no way for anyone to stay on top of everything. It’s like being a doctor—you can’t possibly read every medical journal while still doing your job. But I don’t think people need to over-optimize for AI. Just find the pain points in your job—things that are tedious or time-consuming—and use AI to simplify them. Even if you’re not using the best AI tool, it’s still going to help. It’s about getting familiar with AI and integrating it into your workflow."

Julien Redelsperger: "You mentioned that jobs evolve, and you've written about this concept before. Could you expand on that?"

Mike Todasco: "Yes, I’ve written about something called the 'illusion of history.' It’s a psychological concept where people underestimate how much they will change in the future. For example, people can easily recognize how much their tastes in music have changed over the past decade. But when asked how much they think their tastes will change in the next 10 years, they tend to believe they’ll stay the same. The same thing applies to jobs.

Ten years from now, jobs will look very different from what they are today. Even in professions like mechanics or auto shops, things will evolve. A mechanic 10 years ago probably wasn’t too worried about online reviews or social media, but today, those things are crucial for their business. And ten years from now, other new tools will emerge that will change their work even more."

Julien Redelsperger: "If you were hiring someone today, would you expect them to have some knowledge of AI, regardless of the role?"

Mike Todasco: "For me, the most important thing is a growth mindset. Is the person constantly curious, constantly learning? When I was running the blockchain team at PayPal, we’d give engineers a test on an old, obscure coding language—one that nobody had used since the 1980s. The point wasn’t to see if they already knew it; it was to see how they approached learning something new.

That ability to learn quickly, to be adaptable, is what’s going to be most valuable today. If you’re someone who’s stuck in their ways, that’s a red flag. But if you’re open to experimenting and learning new things, that’s the kind of person we want to hire, especially in a rapidly changing environment like the one AI is creating."

Julien Redelsperger: "What are the key components of a growth mindset? Is it just about being curious?"

Mike Todasco: "Curiosity is a big part of it. People who are constantly asking 'why?' tend to have a growth mindset. They want to understand how things work and how they can improve. That’s usually a good indicator of someone who’s going to keep growing and adapting in their career."

Julien Redelsperger: "Do you think that growth mindset is also strong with recent graduates? What advice would you give to them as they try to land their first job in a market increasingly influenced by AI?"

Mike Todasco: "For recent graduates, my advice is to sell the fact that they are AI-first employees. They don’t need to be machine learning engineers, but they need to understand how to use AI tools effectively. Similar to how the millennial generation entered the workforce with native internet skills, today’s graduates should demonstrate that they know how to leverage AI in their jobs.

They should show how they’ve used AI for projects that are personally meaningful—whether that’s building a travel planner for their family or using AI to optimize their budgeting. The key is to show that they can use these tools creatively and practically, even in non-engineering roles. That’s going to make them stand out."

Julien Redelsperger: "I understand that you don’t need to be an engineer to use AI, but you do need to understand how it works. I want to talk specifically about AI hallucinations—fake information that tools like ChatGPT sometimes produce. How do job seekers or professionals handle that?"

Mike Todasco: "In some ways, hallucinations are a good thing because they remind us not to trust AI completely. If AI becomes too good, there’s a risk we’ll fall asleep at the wheel, assuming it’s always correct. But even when AI hallucinates, that skepticism keeps us vigilant.

For important tasks, like preparing for a court case, I’d recommend using multiple large language models—ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, Meta AI—because each model may interpret things differently. Cross-checking among different models can help ensure accuracy. Personally, I use Claude for fact-checking articles, even though it hallucinates too. I tell it to identify facts in my article and flag anything that seems off. It’s just another set of eyes."

Julien Redelsperger: "What are your favorite AI-powered tools or solutions that you use on a daily basis and can’t live without?"

Mike Todasco: "I use ChatGPT all the time, especially the voice feature. Let me give you a specific use case: my eighth-grade son is taking Mandarin, but nobody in our house speaks the language. He needs to get the tones right, so we took a picture of his homework, put it into ChatGPT, and started a voice conversation. ChatGPT helped him practice, giving feedback on his pronunciation. It wasn’t perfect, but it was really helpful given the situation.

I also use Claude, specifically Claude 3.5, which is a paid version. It’s great for writing, editing, and anything text-related. For images, I use MidJourney and an open-source model called Flux. I spent a whole day generating pictures of myself eating pickles in all sorts of weird situations. It was a lot of fun! Lastly, I use Perplexity for searches. I’ve even changed my default search engine from Google to Perplexity."

Julien Redelsperger: "How much time would you say these AI tools save you each day? Could you work without them now?"

Mike Todasco: "I could work without them, but I wouldn’t enjoy it as much! It’s hard to say how much time they save, but these tools definitely let me do more. Whether it’s writing more or cooking meals with AI’s help, they’re making tasks easier and more efficient. I probably spend an hour a day using these tools combined. They’re becoming an essential part of my workflow."

Julien Redelsperger: "Some argue that AI will create more jobs than it replaces. Not everyone agrees. What’s your take on this optimistic view of creative destruction?"

Mike Todasco: "I’ve written about this in a three-part series. Historically, every time we have a major technological innovation, it disrupts jobs, but it also creates new ones. John Maynard Keynes predicted nearly 100 years ago that productivity gains would eventually reduce our working hours. And he was right about productivity—it’s soared since then. But what he didn’t foresee was that people would keep working.

In many countries, people are working fewer hours than before, but in places like the U.S., we’re still tied to the idea that our identity is wrapped up in our job. My hope is that AI will allow us to rethink this. Maybe it will lead to shorter workweeks and more leisure time. But as a society, we’ll need to decide how we want to use these productivity gains."

Julien Redelsperger: "What do you think about the idea of a universal basic income (UBI)? Could AI take over enough work that people would just get paid to enjoy life, working fewer hours each week?"

Mike Todasco: "It’s an interesting concept. We already have something like that in Alaska, where residents receive a yearly dividend from the state because of the oil revenue. It’s a form of UBI, though it’s not a huge amount of money. Y Combinator also ran an experiment in Stockton, California, a few years back, testing the effects of UBI. They looked at how people spent the money, their health, alcohol consumption, and other factors.

As AI advances, people are worried about what happens when machines can do most jobs better than humans. One idea is to tax the robots and provide UBI from that revenue. I’m open to continuing experiments like these, but I don’t know if UBI is the ultimate solution. If we reach AGI and it can do everything better than we can, we may need to rethink the concept of work entirely."

Julien Redelsperger: "Looking at the job market in 2024, what’s your outlook for 2025 and beyond?"

Mike Todasco: "I think we’ll start seeing headlines about companies cutting jobs because of AI. In certain areas like customer service, where there’s a lot of turnover and high training costs, AI can do the job better and more efficiently. We’ll probably see companies reduce their customer service teams significantly.

However, some companies, like Zappos, pride themselves on personal, human-centered customer service, and they won’t make that shift to AI. But for companies like Delta Airlines, where customer service is less about personal relationships, we may see bots taking over. The impact will vary by industry, but in some sectors, we’ll see massive upheaval."

Julien Redelsperger: "At the end of each episode, we ask our guests to answer a question posed by the previous guest. Are you ready?"

Mike Todasco: "Yeah, I want to hear this!"

Julien Redelsperger: "The question comes from Dan Curran, the founder and CEO of Chapters.io. His question is: 'Imagine it’s 10 years from now, and there are movies, paintings, and music that are all created by AI. Is that art?'"

Mike Todasco: "That’s a great question! People call it AI art, but is it really art? I think art requires intention. For example, there’s a YouTube series where people use AI tools like MidJourney and Runway ML to make 1950s-style trailers for modern movies like Marvel films. It’s amazing! It probably took them 30 hours to make a one-minute trailer. That’s art because there’s human intention behind it.

On the other hand, if you just type 'beautiful sunset' into an AI and get a gorgeous image, that’s probably not art. It’s the difference between creating something with intention and just pressing a button. But I do believe AI art can be real art, depending on how it’s made."

Julien Redelsperger: "Thank you so much, Mike. I'll make sure Dan knows your answer. Now it's your turn. What question would you like to pose for the next guest?"

Mike Todasco: "You've asked so many great questions about jobs and AI, so I’d like to ask the next guest: What would it take in the evolution of AI to have their job eliminated?"

Julien Redelsperger: "Wow, I love this one. It’s a great question—short and sweet. I’ll make sure you get the answer. Mike, thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today."

Mike Todasco: "Julien, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks for having me."

Julien Redelsperger: "And that wraps up another episode of AI Experience. Thank you for tuning in, and we’ll see you next time."

This transcription was generated by an artificial intelligence tool. It may not be 100% accurate and could contain errors and approximations.

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